Twilight Great Danes

Things you should know!

This page about Twilight Great Danes (AKA Twilight Farms), & Mary Roycroft was added due to the numerious calls & emails we recieved about the conditions of the Adults, puppies and facilities. We wanted to give some insite as to what we know and posted this information for you to read over and come to your own opinions & conclusions. Please read the page in it's entirety and keep checking back as we will keep updating this page as new information becomes available! If you have witnessed first hand conditions that you feel are unacceptable please use the link provided below (at the bottom of this Content box.) to file your complaint with the proper authorities.

Kelso's GR8 Danes is in NO WAY associated with Twilight Great Danes (AKA Twilight Farms) or Mary Roycroft ! We do NOT approve of nor accept MOST of their breeding practices!!!

Yes, Kelso-Twilight Shadows Still Remains is out of our breeding program and YES, he is a well bred dog that comes from a very impressive line, but that does not alone make him a breeding candidate!!!! However, Kelso's GR8 Danes has had legal dealings with Twilight Great Danes involving this dog!!! (All of this information is a matter of PUBLIC RECORD. If you want more information about this litigation PLEASE look it up in PUBLIC RECORDS!!!)

I ENCOURAGE YOU TO DO RESEARCH ON THE BITCHES "Shadow" Kelso-Twilight Shadows Still Remain IS BRED TO!!!! Ask for 4-5 generation color marked CERTIFIED pedigree for both the Sire and Dam. Please learn how to read a pedigree to make sure the litter in question is NOT LINE BRED/INBRED, if you are NOT looking for a LINEBRED/INBRED Puppy!!! Also ask for OFA TEST RESULT CERTIFICATIONS, & CERF TEST RESULTS!!!! PLEASE LEARN TO READ & INTERPRET THOSE RESULTS!!! ALSO BE SURE TO ASK IF ANY OF THOSE PUPPIES BRED/WHELPED INTO TWILIGHTS GREAT DANES HAVE HEALTH RELATED ISSUES...ALSO ASK IF ANY PUPPIES HAVE DIED DUE TO HEALTH RELATED ISSUES!!!!

***Please Note and food for thought- DON'T ACQUIRE OR BREED A MEDIOCRE, FAULTED BITCH OR DOG JUST BECAUSE IT HAS A SUPERIOR PEDIGREE!!! EVEN THE BEST SIRES AND DAMS WILL PRODUCE SOME PET QUALITY OFFSPRING!!!! A PEDIGREE IS NEVER MORE IMPORTANT THEN THE CORRECT CONFORMATION, TEMPERAMENT, & HEALTH OF THE SIRE AND/OR DAM!!!! LITTERMATES ARE NOT CREATED EQUAL NOR SHOULD THEY BE TREATED AS SUCH!!!!***

***Note on OFA Cardio & Thyroid- PLEASE MAKE SURE WHEN PURCHASING ANY PUPPY FROM ANY BREEDER THE PARENTS' OFA CARDIO (HEART) CERTIFICATION HAVE BEEN OFA CERTIFED WITH AN ECHOCARDIOGRAM!!!! OTHERWISE IT JUST MEANS SOME VET LISTENED TO THE DOG'S HEART AND HAD NOT HEARD A PROBLEM AT THAT TIME!!!! IT DOES NOT MEAN THERE ISN'T A "SILENT" TIME BOMB WAITING TO BE DISCOVERED LATER ON OR GO OFF!!! IT JUST MEANS THE VET DID NOT HEAR ANYTHING WRONG AT THE TIME HE LISTEN TO THE HEART!!!!

AN ECHOCARDIOGRAM WILL PICK UP BLOOD FLOW PROBLEMS, MURMURS,WEAK OR THIN LINING OF THE WALLS/MUSCLES OF THE HEART, OR ANY LITTLE GLITCH IN THE HEART THAT CANNOT BE HEARD!!!! THIS CAN SAVE YOU A SMALL FORTUNE , EMOTIONAL DISTRESS, AND THE LIFE OF YOUR PUPPY IF YOU HEED MY WARNING!!!! ALSO MAKE SURE YOU SEE A THYROID OFA CERTIFICATE...NOT A LAB REPORT!!!! OFA THYROID TESTS ARE TESTED TO A "GREATER" DEGREE THEN JUST A BASIC LAB TEST!!! ***

I will be posting the story of my involvement with Mary Roycroft and Twilight Great Danes at a later date! Please check back or call me if you have questions!!! However, I will NOT be discussing legal issuses or involvement with Mary Roycroft & Twilight Great Danes, ONLY TRUE FACTS OF WHAT I KNOW!!!

IT IS MY PERSONAL OPINION AND BELIEF THAT MRS ROYCROFT IS DISHONEST AND BREEDING FOR MONEY OVER THE LACK OF CONSERN FOR THE BETTERMENT OF THE BREED!!!! IT IS FURTHER MY OPINION THAT SOME OF THE BITCHES THAT ARE BEING BRED AT TWILIGHT GREAT DANES ARE NOT OF BREEDING QUALITY AND SHOULD NEVER BE BRED!!!

Please see our links that discuss:

Ostrich Syndrome

AKC-Kennel Blindness

Kennel Blind

Popular Sire Syndrome

Paper Tigers

If you would like to file an anonymous complaint as to the conditions at Twilight Farm or your dealings with/about Mary Roycroft THAT YOU HAVE WITNESSED FIRST HAND, please click this text to take you to the proper place to file!!!

A word about coat color

There is no such color as a lilac fawn they are called a blue fawn or fawn with a blue mask/markings. They are a pet quality color and should not be classed any differently!!! Nor should the price be higher or marked as a "rare" color. This color comes from crossing a blue with a fawn. BOTH PARENTS MUST BE CARRIERS OF THE BLUE & FAWN GENES IN ORDER FOR IT TO BE PASSED TO PUPPIES AND SHOW/COMEOUT IN COAT COLOR!!! Shadow's dam Robbie (THAT I AM AWARE OF) DOES NOT CARRY FAWN NOR BRINDLE! (Robbie's 4 generation pedigree is posted on my site for you to see!) However, Shadow's sire does have a Fawn ancestor in the 4th generation of his pedigree. Since Shadow has produced Blue Fawns with several different bitches it is now a known fact he is a carrier of the fawn gene along with the bitches he was bred that produced the blue fawns. When bred properly you will not see the "fawn" come out in a blue. However, when breeding two carriers of Fawn/brindle there is at least a 25% chance they will produce offspring with the undesirable trait/color. But, please do NOT mistake the reddish tint in a blue coat from being left out in the sun and sun bleached as fawn or brindle markings!!! Our Salem is Shadow's littermate sister...NO FAWN/BRINDLE COLORING IN HER COAT!!! Her photo pedigree is posted!!!! Also, be aware that when researching Mrs Roycroft's pedigree's MOST OF THE BITCHES & SIRES ON HER PROPERTY (and two out side studs she has used in the past...Ike AKA "Throne's Eisenhower Ike" [Ike is Baby's half brother, they share the same sire]& Lil Ike " Adeles Douglas MacArthur" [I believe Lil Ike's Dam is also a half sister to Ike. Which means Lil Ike has the same grandsire on both his sire & dam's side. I am not sure if they carry fawn/brindle but, are related to Baby, Mercy, Lacy, Shadow, Lola & Storm]) ARE RELATED IN SOME WAY AND CARRY FAWN, BRINDLE, and/or HARLEQUIN!!!

If Shadow's coat color is less then a nice steal blue color that standard requires, this would make him a "pet quality" dog and should NOT be used in a breeding program!!! If Shadow's ears do NOT stand do to the crop Mrs Roycroft had a vet preform on this dog...the dog does not meet standard and is a "pet quality" dog and should be neutered!!! (I don't think I need to go further into detail to say this is a pet quality dog and should be neutered!)

Here's a few links that can test for hidden colors in dogs:

HealthGene

VetGene

All of this and we haven't even hit health testing yet... Go to http://www.offa.org/ and type in the search box the name of a dog/bitch you would like to see their results on. If nothing comes up, chances are they haven't been health tested!!!

It might surprise you to find out that Baby (Dam to Mercy, Lacy, & Lola) has been graded with mild hip dysplasia she also has an eye problem that that is genetic and causes her eyes to constantly become infected and is pass to most of her offspring (Mercy also has this condition. If the offspring do not show signs/symptoms they still can be carriers or symptoms my pop up later in a puppy's life!)

Mercy along with the genetic eye condition, has or may have later in life hip dysplasia! Her PennHip report shows LeftDI=.56, RightDI=.50, the closer these numbers get towards .70 the greater the chance of dysplasia!!!

NOW you can see why it's important to check and see certifcations and learn how to read the results!!!!

Baby's sister Bell also noted as having Mild dysplasiadied of a genetic disease called AIHA. Here's an email that Mrs Roycroft sent out on 5/6/2007 to puppybuyers after Bell's death: (Please note I have copied and pasted the email word for word. I have not changed any text,however, I have added my comments in yellow or highlight her key points in green.

Hi all,

I wanted to check on your puppies and see how they are doing.

However, this e-mail comes with a heavy heart. I feel I need to tell

you what is going on here.

On the evening of April 25th, we had rotated the girls as usual.

Baby and Bell were out in the kennel while Jena, Bear and Halo

had one last run before bed. (Hmmmm, I believe Mrs Roycroft

advertises ALL her dogs are raised in the house!!!!)When we let

Baby and Bell out for the night, at about midnight, Fred realized

that Bell must not feel well. She sleeps with us, and the next

morning she did not get up with us as usual. I went back in to get

her up, and she slowly got out of bed and walked to the back door

to go out. Just as we got to the door, she staggered and slowly

collasped to the floor. We rushed her to the hospital and by the

end of that day, we were given the news that she has extreme

anemia. She was given two transfusions that day, and upon further

testing, it has been determined that she has auto-immune

hemalytic anemia(AIHA). It is now 12 days later, and she is still

hospitalized. She seems to be getting better, but it is slow and we

can only hope she will pull through this.

The reason for the e-mail is to give you a heads up. I had never

heard of this disease before, and my research of it has resulted in

the realization that while it is out there, there is really limited

knowledge about it. It appears that some breeds have a

pre-disposition to the disease, but great danes are not one of them.

Further, I have spent several days in talking to other dane breeders,

as well as tracing my lines back as far as nine generations

(be sure to ask Mrs Roycroft about what genetic issues she had

found!!!). I have yet to find another dane who has had this condition.

It seems that most vets believe it to be an hereditary condition, and

so the e-mail to all puppies who have full registrations from that line.

Baby and Bell are half sisters, sharing the same father. However,

their mothers are also full blooded sisters. While this condition

appears to have developed within hours, apparently it can also

develop more slowly. The main symptom is weakness, and pale

gums, indicating the low red blood count. please discuss this with

you vet. A discussion of this with one of your litter mates who is

owned by another breeder has led us to decide to do at least a

yearly blood count on these dogs. (I am the other breeder she is

talking about...ask her to see those yearly blood counts that she has

FAILED to do!!! Me I spayed my bitch in question!!! Blood test

should include Baby, Mercy, Lacy & Storm and both outside stud

she has used Ike and Lil Ike since they are BOTH related to Baby &

Bell!!!)

I also have one of these puppies as most of you now know. I plan

on putting her in the ring and she is to be part of the breeding

program going forward.(this is Mercy, ask her why she has not kept

on showing Mercy, but continues to breed her!!) Honestly, in

researching my lines, I have come to realize that the gene pool in

the USA for blue and black danes is extremely limited, and probably

every blue dane is related if you go back far enough. As you know,

I love my blues and blacks, and unless all of us stop breeding and

let the lines die, I don't know what the solution is.

Irena (the other breeder) and I are discussing importing blues from

Europe to cross into our lines. (No I discussed importing a male

and did...Where's her's?) While this may help, we are still

concerned on what genetic problems may begin to come out due to

the heavy in-breeding in the blues and blacks. While we do not

believe in line breeding, as I said, every blue and most blacks have

been heavily line bred going back several generations, and we may

only now be seeing the results of these breedings in the current

generations. (Why is it with sick and dead puppies she still

continues to linebreed and produce more sick puppies

with genetic problems???) As always, I am here to talk if you

have any questions or comments.

THanks,

Mary

Please see our links about AIHA:

VetInfo

Dr's Foster's & Smith Pet Info

Emails I received from others

Please note- All names and email addresses have been removed for personal reasons. However I do have originals to prove they come from others!

In a message dated 7/13/2010 9:33:57 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, writes:

Irena, Hello, My name is XXXX . I have an 8 month old, Blue Great Dane, but I just wanted to tell you how beautiful your dogs are. I have no idea why your site didn’t come up when I was searching back in December. I live in the area of PA, and I did purchase a puppy from a breeder in Southern York County.
XXXX(his call name) is a wonderful, loving, beautiful dedicated puppy, but it has been a struggle, and a long road. He has had some health issues, and has finally been diagnosed with Inflammatory Bowel Disease, and it has affected his growth and weight gain. He is small, only about 30 inches tall and only 98 pounds at 8 months. He started showing signs/symptoms, pretty much within the first two months of bringing him home, and of course his local vet assumed food allergy, so we tried different food trials, to no avail.. and he continued to get worse, never gaining weight. At 6 months, I sought a second opinion, and that vet sent me to _________ Vet Clinic in _____, to see an internist. _____ spent 3 days at the hospital receiving tests, (I spent about $4,000) but we finally had a resolution, and he is doing so much better with his course of treatment.
It just breaks my heart that he has been through so much, and he is so young. Funny, he doesn’t seem to mind, he is vibrant, playful, funny and energetic. It disturbs me that I paid good money for a Great Dane, but in the end will have a dog about the size of a Weimaraner. But, I could not love him anymore… he is blessed to have me as a parent, as I feel he is my child, and there is NOTHING I wouldn’t do for him.
I apologize this is getting long, I sometimes cannot help but share his story to other dog/Dane lovers. The reason for my email I suppose, is to inquire about your puppies. While I do not have room for another one now, I would love to keep you in mind for a future 2^nd puppy, as I do not have intention on returning to _____’s breeder.
I guess I am hoping that you would be around for a few years??? I am so very pleased with your website and the interest you take in the babies. For someone like me, they are not “just dogs” but my family, they live in my house, my car, my living room…._____ IS my family, and it is that mentality I seek in a breeder.
I would not be looking for show/breeding, but a pet, as _____. I would however, be looking for a large Great Dane, well, at least one that will match the breed standard. While I do not blame the breeder for what happened to _____, I understand no one could have predicted an autoimmune disease such as this, it is still heartbreaking and at times I feel left out with no support.
If possible, I would love to speak to you regarding any future breedings, and maybe even visit your farm, if you would be open to that. I greatly appreciate your time.
Sincerely,
XXXXXXX XXXXXX

On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 2:17 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:
Hello XXXXX,
Thank you for your email! I am sorry you are having problems with your Dane. I think I know of the breeder you got him from, for I too have PROBLEMS with this breeder. You said she's not to blame for your dog's problems...I think you should reconsider that statement as ALL BREEDERS should know good and well the problems they are producing through their breeding program. (If it is the same breeder I speak of, she has plenty of puppies with issues and STILL continues to breed those dogs with problems instead of spaying and neutering! She also continues to inbreed/line breed back into pedigrees with KNOWN issues!) If you DO NOT KNOW A PEDIGREE YOU SHOULD NOT BE BREEDING!!! As I am currently involved in a legal matter over the breeding practices of the breeder I think you got your puppy from. May I also tell you that IBS and other autoimmune diseases are GENETIC and your breeder should be standing behind her contract and making sure the puppy she brought into this world, is taken care of! Sorry, I know I'm rambling, but I get steamed when I hear about these "back yard breeders and puppy mills" that are breeding to make money instead of an EXCILLENT QUALITY PUPPY!!! Enough about that....

I would be happy to speak with you or even have you come visit our Danes. However, I don't live on a farm, all of my Danes are raised in my home and treated like family. If you have any questions about our Danes I can be reached via telephone at (302)437-6041 or email [email protected]

In a message dated 7/13/2010 2:50:41 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, writes:
Irena,

I am going to go out an a limb here and assume we are both dealing with Twilight Farms??

Yeah, we need to have a conversation. I have been fighting with this place to get some, actually ALL of my money back, and here we are, 6 months after the purchase, and I have received nothing. I have been told the Vets are only after my money and he will "grow out of this" and its not a "heredity" issue so they are not obligated to give me any money back at all.

I have been kind and extremely patient, hoping that I will see some type of refund, as it has been promised over and over and over. Yet..........nothing.

I would love to talk to you more. I hate to badmouth a breeder to another one, but if we are both dealing with the same place, I have so much more I could tell you.

I would love to add another Dane puppy once _______ condition is better managed and we wean back some of his medications. Perhaps in another year or so.

I have included some pics of ______ for you, I hope you enjoy.

Have a wonderful afternoon, and we will talk soon.
XXXXXX

On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 3:18 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:

Hello XXXXXX,
Yes we are talking about the same place. I knew we were the second I read your email and believe me...I could tell you more then you could possibly imagine about Ms Roycroft's breeding practices!!!!!

IBS is genetic and can be proven in books along with the host of other things that she is breeding. My Aurora came from her and she is spayed because of her never being able to put on weight and other issues as well. As she is using my contract without my further permission and a few detail changes...I would be glad to discuss some key contract details with you! I don't know why she would expect someone to follow a contract that she herself does not even follow!

In a message dated 7/13/2010 3:58:35 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, writes:

Wow -

I will try to call you this evening. I am in touch with two owners from _____'s litter, one pup died at approx 5 months of age, the other has HOD and Pano. As far as we know, from what Mary told us, four others have HOD and another had some bowel/diarrhea issues. I don't know how any others are doing, except for the 1 HOD/Pano.

She offered no financial aid to any owners as far as I know.

Mary replaced the puppy that died. He was from a new stud she has on her farm now, as the people did not want anything from the same bloodline. They were reluctant, but knew they would not get any money from her, so they took the puppy.

I thank you for your time, and we will talk soon.

On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 8:26 AM, <[email protected]> wrote:

Good Morning XXXXXX,

I spent a long and unrestful night last night thinking about our telephone conversation and the more and more I sit here and go over in my head the conversation about Mary's dogs, them having CHV, and the way you found me. I am horrified to think that now other people that are having problems with Mary's puppy are going to find me the same as you and possibly think that her breeding practices are the same as mine or she is tied with me in some mannor...which they/she clearly are NOT! I would like to share this information with my attorney and would like to know if I may give him your telephone numbers to contact you for verification of our conversation and or any questions he may have?

Irena,

you absolutely may. I did not sleep at all last nite, as I too am just horrified by all this.

I in NO WAY think or believe that you have the same practices as Mary, and XXXXX and I vow to do ALL we can to have her shut down.

I am certain that XXXXX would feel the same way. I will check with XXXX, and if XXX agrees, I will pass on XXXX info to you as well.

I will be in touch.

More Emails

In a message dated 7/14/2010 8:51:10 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, XXX writes:

Irena,

this is the one link I read about the CHV

http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/dog/health/viral/herpesvirus.php

I need to be in touch with my Vet, because.... as you read this, notice that

A surviving puppy can develop a latent CHP infection, and some puppies develop neurological problems, including blindness and trouble walking properly. If the dog is subjected to stress or is given immunosuppressive drugs it can cause a latent CHP infection to become reactivated.

XXXX has been on rather HIGH doses of Immunosuppression drugs to control his IBD. This just gets worse and worse.

Again, I cannot thank you enough for your time, and believe me when I tell you, I KNOW you are nothing like Mary. If I thought that, I would have never contact you in the first place. I said to Xxxxxxx last nite, you are a person I would buy a puppy from, and I mean that. I only wish I had found you sooner.

On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 9:08 AM, <[email protected]> wrote:

Thanks XXXXX,

I do know all about CHV...I wanted to make sure from you that is exactly what Mary said those puppies died from...as that virus is highly contagious and any puppy or adult dog that comes into contact with Baby since it is now proven she is a carrier, is at GREAT RISK from being infected and in the minimal as being a carrier!!!! Your puppy was on site when that litter died, I would make sure your vet knows he's been around the CHV and should be tested as this virus can be infectious to other puppies FOR MONTHS after they have appeared to recover while passing it to others!!!! Which means your puppy was probably aloud to play with the "carrier" puppies while they were still transmitting the virus!!!! This could be part of the reason your puppy is so sick and the reason why Xxxxxx died!!!!!

In a message dated 7/14/2010 9:14:46 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
Xxxxx came home Dec 24th. That litter was born March 31. However, Little Ike was the same stud to each. So they were not on site at the same time, however it is concerning, as Little Ike (if he was the carrier) was father to both litters, and we know health issues in both.
I will be emailing Dr. Xxxxx at Xxxxx Vet today. I am SICK.
Xxxxxx is willing to share all of her info as well, and she should be contacting you directly. The only other owner I am in touch with is the owner of Xxxxx, the HOD/Pano puppy. I know, he to, wants Mary shut down. He is in Xxxxx

On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 9:21 AM, <[email protected]> wrote:
I am in TEARS!!!! I CANNOT comprehend how someone can be SO NON-CARRING about all these puppies!!!

Any dog or puppy on Mary's property that came into contact with Baby, Little Ike, or any of those puppies (Which you have seen Mary's facility, you know all the dogs on her property) should now be considered at least carriers. Even if you know nothing else about dogs you know that they sniff and lick other dogs privet parts and therefore can contact CHV.

In a message dated 7/14/2010 9:26:52 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
I know, I am as well.

Xxxxxx is going to call you today after work.

I will let you know what Dr. Xxxxxx say.

We WILL get her shut down, if its the last
thing I do.

In a message dated 7/15/2010 10:09:33 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

Hello Irena:

I just wanted to let you know, that I did speak to XXXXX's Internist about the CHV, and the kennel at Mary's farm. He is not concerned for Xxxxx, as he made it past the 5 week stage, and was not in the kennel at the same time as the sick puppies or bitch. He explained more to me about the may CHV is transmitted and signs/symptoms in an adult dog, and bottom line, again, he is not worried.

What we are in fact tracking at this point, is Xxxx's platelet count. He has blood work completed every two weeks due to the meds he is on to treat his IBD. At his last test, the platelets were elevated. So, we want to test again in a week to be sure this is not a new trend we need to be aware of.

I Legal Issue can not post this wording. Just asking again if any of them would like to share info, stories, pics, etc. It was a fishing expedition to see if they open up to me about any health problems, concerns. Xxxxx, XXXXX, and myself figure the more complaints we can get, the more letters written to agencies, the better it will be to hopefully end this tragic breeding.

If you have any input or concerns with this, please let me. I did not, nor will I mention your name.

Thanks again. i will keep you updated.

Xxxxxx

From: [email protected]

To: ,

Sent: 7/15/2010 6:50:37 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time
Subj: Fwd: Doc

Here's an email I kept from Mary from back when he Bell Died. Please note the last section I highlighted in yellow...I was the only one talking about importing a male and that's my McFly. Note she has yet to introduce "new" bloodlines!

(Same email as above, the one that talks about Bell having AIHA)

In a message dated 7/16/2010 11:38:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

Irena...

Mary had "promised' me a refund, which should have arrived Wed. That came and went, I inquired with her, she never responded. Today, still no check in the mail. so I sent another email.... they are as follows. I thought you would appreciate her responses.

my email....

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that there was no check in the mail, and no word from you. You never mailed a check did you? You fill my head with things I want to hear. You are crafted at the art of deception, it shows in the puppies you breed, your morals as a breeder, and you as a person. I knew in my gut from day 1 you never intended to do a thing about any of the sick puppies you produce from that place, once they leave, you don't care. you cashed in.

And for the record, I read over your contract, and it states......... (e) Should Puppy be diagnosed with a genetically derived medical disorder before the age of
2 that is crippling or fatal in nature and which is attested to by two unassociated veterinarians, Seller will, upon provision of veterinary reports and, where applicable, OFA report, provide Buyer with a replacement puppy of equal quality as soon as one becomes available. The original puppy will be returned to the breeder. A second option is offered by the breeder. It the buyer so chooses, the breeder will pay medical costs associated with the genetic defect up to the full original purchase price of the puppy. No refunds of money will be made. Buyer is responsible for all shipping costs. This guarantee is extended only to the original Buyer(s) listed on this contract.

Xxxxx was less than 4 months old when he started showing signs/symptoms and and barely 7 months old when we had a definitive diagnosis, one which you argue with to this day, despite the fact that 3 Veterinarians concur. And, IBD IS GENETIC!!!!! Without the treatment course I have invested in, Xxxx's condition would in fact become crippling and adversely affect his life, it has already affected his growth, and he may NEVER reach the breed standard, a standard I paid damn good money for.

I listened to you tell me time and time again that you were "offering me help", "sending me a refund" "getting me money as soon as a puppy sells" and that time has come and gone for four months now. I am done listening to your empty promises and lies. I see no reason to continue contact at this point.

Good luck with future litters, I can only hope you instill better practices for the sake of the puppies and the owners. NO OWNER or PUPPY should have to go through what this litter has endured. For that, I blame you.

her response..........

Xxxxxx,
I do stand behind my puppies, and I have given you everything I can. ( WTH, are you kidding me? WHAT has she given me other than headaches and MAJOR DEBT!!!)   I did not send the check on Monday, since Fred handles all the money, and when I informed him I had told you I was sending a check, he told me it had to wait until Friday when he got his paycheck. It is going out tomorrow in the mail. I do apoligize for not telling you, but I can't send you what i don't have.

Further, the contract states what disorders are covered by the genetic guarantee:
Specifically covered disorders: Juvenile Cataracts, Renal Dysplasia, Microopthalmia, Retinal Dysplasia or other congenital blindness, Megaesophagus, Hip Dysplasia, Dilated Cardiomyopathy (if diagnosed prior to 24 months of age), Mitral Valve Defect (same), Epilepsy (same), Autoimmune Hypothyroidism (same).
As you know, IBD is not on this list of covered disorders. Further, if you read up on IBD, in humans, (did I miss something? Is Xxxxx a HUMAN???) there is a genetic risk factor. This is not the same as it being an hereditary disease. Only 10-20% of IBD patients have one or more family members with the disease. That means that between 80 and 90% DO NOT. That is the same as telling a person that because he develops cancer it is his parents fault. That would be stupid. Do some cancers seem to have a genetic risk? yes, but it does not mean that all cancer is hereditary. I don't know why Xxxx has this illness. I do know that I have never even heard of it in a dog prior to Xxxxx, and I certainly do not have any history of it not only in his linage, but also not in his siblings or half siblings.
That being said, I have told you I would give you a refund, and I will. I understand your situation, but I would have hoped that you would have some understanding of mine.
Mary

then she wrote me again.....

Xxxxx,
I have been very upset by your e-mail, and I just went back and re-read the final report by his specialist. I have copied the pertinent portions, with added highlights.

Based on the results of the histopathology as well as Xxxxxx's clinical signs, I feel that a diagnosis of idiopathic inflammatory bowel disease (IBD) can be made. IBD is a group of gastrointestinal tract diseases that occur for unknown reason; characterized by inflammation of the lining of the stomach and/or intestines and accompanied by chronic gastrointestinal signs (such as vomiting, diarrhea, weight loss). Susceptibility genes (like those seen in human inflammatory bowel disease) have not been identified in dogs and cats.
The cause of IBD is unknown; most likely many factors lead to its occurrence. Most likely it involves a complex interaction between the animal’s genetics; immune capabilities and response of the lining of the intestinal tract (known as "mucosal immunity"); and environmental (gastrointestinal bacteria) factors. No convincing link has been definitively established with an infectious agent (such as virus or bacteria). Meat proteins, food additives, artificial coloring, preservatives, milk proteins, and gluten (wheat) are proposed causative agents and hence dietary adjustment can be helpful.
This report does not say that the specialist thinks this is hereditary. It says that it is most likely an interaction between all of these things.

and I simply said.....

I never said hereditary, that's your word. I said genetics, and Dr
Xxxxxx's report does in fact say "genetics"

Thank you

On Jul 17, 2010 at 4:35:32 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:

http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dvm/Medicine/Advances-in-managing-inflammatory-bowel-disease/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/3000

http://search.dvm360.com/vetmd/EUISearch.do?searchType=defLink&qgeneral=budesonide&q=&tabid=

I got these links from my vet. They are from and online VET SITE! just some interesting reading and copy and paste to show Mary it is Genetic. I guess we expected that response from her!

On Jul 17, 2010 at 5:46:51 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:

Hello Xxxxx,

Had to send this to you since my attorney and I wrote this:

Specifically covered disorders: Juvenile Cataracts, Renal Dysplasia, Microopthalmia, Retinal Dysplasia or other congenital blindness, Megaesophagus, Hip Dysplasia, Dilated Cardiomyopathy (if diagnosed prior to 24 months of age), Mitral Valve Defect (same), Epilepsy (same), Autoimmune Hypothyroidism (same).

this is what it means:

This just simply means that if any of these genetic disorders were to crop up on one of my puppies (because we do all the OFA testing on the parents, and even still can crop up if a parent is a carrier not picked up on testing) THEY ARE SPECIFICALLY COVERED! But no were on the contract (at least on Mary's contract) does it state those are the ONLY (limited to) genetic diseases covered nor does it list genetic disorders that are not covered to show a difference between what is considered "life altering"...mine does. Something like "Cherry Eye" would not be "life altering" and that is also something that can "pop up" out of a line even if both parents are CERF clear. However, if you look at Mary's bitch Mercy she is listed as a Breeder's option on her CERF...this is because she has a genetic disorder of the eyelids and will most likely either produce puppies that have the same condition or the will be carriers of the condition and if those puppies were bred to other dogs that are carriers, you will get pups with clinical signs of the genetic disorder. Mercy's Dam Baby also has the same condition. My Aurora had no clinical signs and passed her CERF but had produced a litter where half the litter has now shown clinical signs of the same condition...I have to assume the other half are carriers (but all those pups are on spay/neuter contracts and they were made aware of the disorder BEFORE they purchased the puppy from me because one pup developed the condition at 7 wks old! And hence why, one of the many factors why Aurora is now spayed!!! I think Mercy should also be spayed because not only does she have a Breeder Option CERF, too low of body weight to "support" herself after pups, but also her PennHip results [I haven't seen the report but I suspect says DJD] laxity numbers shows she either has currently or will develop hip Dysplasia!...NOT A BREEDING CANDIDATE [in my opinion]!!!! ) Sorry, I kind of got off track a little, but wanted you to know basically, the contract does NOT say what Mary thinks it does!

As for this:

That being said, I have told you I would give you a refund, and I will. I understand your situation, but I would have hoped that you would have some understanding of mine.

When you sell a puppy with a guarantee, don't you think that money should be placed into an escrow account until after your guarantee period is over? I do! (At least the proceeds from a few pups, just so you can give a refund if you need to!) What's stupid is why should you have to wait for her to sell a puppy to give you a refund or wait for Fred's paycheck...Can you say pyramid scheme! Why should you be the one that has to wait and be put out? What would she do with that pup if you returned it? Have him put down because she cannot afford treatment...THAT'S JUST CRAZY!!!!! She should be happy that she has found such a GREAT home for him and willing to take care of him and love him!

By the next email that she wrote you...sounds like she's NOT going to stand behind her puppy and do the right thing by giving you a refund! If that were one of mine, YOU WOULD OF HAD YOUR MONEY THE DAY I RECEIVED THE VET REPORT! Because, it's simply NOT proven either way. She is now on notice...any other puppies from either parents that IBD crops up, needs to be tracked and that parent spayed/neutered! (especially if more then one puppy from the litter has issues...like Xxxxx! And that's the only one you know of that died from that litter!) This kind of runs on the whole HOD/Pano Issue...one puppy I would say NOT genetic, but rather due to the puppy's environment...but more then one, THAT'S GENETIC!!! I think Mary does not know enough about her linage and does not care to know, because if she did she would NOT continue to breed it!!!!!

Like I keep saying...SHE'S SCUM!!!!!

In a message dated 7/17/2010 5:59:45 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time

Hi Irena...

thanks for all the info. I have "marked" many websites as well stating it is GENETIC. Se sent me another email after, hi-lighting my own Veterinarian Report... and telling me no where does he say IBD is hereditary. I simply responded.

Mary, I never said hereditary, those are your words. I said GENETIC" and Dr. Xxxxx's report does in fact say genetic.

Thank you.

My Vet's report does mention the cause to be genetic, among other things.

Her next email to me said I have mailed you a refund check, it went in the mail today.

Is it a full refund? I guess I will find out Tues (it will probably bounce)

I think she is starting to fear that I will sue her. I have always been patient and calm. this was the most firm, direct email I have sent, as you can tell. my patience has run out. I still have every intention of following thru with all of my letters to hopefully end her breeding. I know it will be hard, Pennsylvania has some of the most lackadaisical breeding laws.

In a message dated 7/17/2010 6:06:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time

Oh... and another thing... one other owner did contact me.. they have a female with confirmed diagnoses of Pano. That is now 2 that I know for sure, have 1st hand knowledge of, with confirmed Pano. That same dog had issues with diarrhea for months in the beginning of her life, they did several food trials, and she is now fine. So she also has GI/Allergy issues.

On Jul 24, 2010 at 11:10:56 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:

Hey Guys,

Just wanted you both to know our puppies just turned 6 weeks old and are now ready for visitors!!! Salem is not too far along (if she's pregnant) that visitors would stress her out any (NOT that I think visitors would ever stress her out, just don't want her acting like a "goofball" when she's further along!). I would love to have you over to meet our Danes!!! Let's try and schedule a day and time for you all to stop over and meet the crew!

In a message dated 7/25/2010 11:31:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time

Hi Irena,

Xxxx & I were talking and we could come out this Sunday the 1st if that works for you?

Let us know. I am waiting to hear from Xxxxx to determine a time

Thanks for having us out!! Talk to you soon

In a message dated 7/27/2010 8:57:55 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time

Hi there...

I cannot wait to come out and visit you and the puppies. I keep going back to your web site and looking at Burton. I am In LOVE with him. He is so darn adorable.

I did get 1/2 my money back from Mary, and she still promises I will get the rest.

Xxxxx continues to improve, so hopefully I will be able to add a 2nd Dane next year.

Looking forward to a visit, let us know if you are available the weekend.

Thanks

Xxxxx

On Jul 28, 2010 at 1:57:45 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:

Hello Xxxxxxx,

I am glad you received something back from Mary. I do hope you get the rest you are owed from her!

I am glad to hear Xxxxx keeps improving! I will be here and around on Sunday. So far my Sunday morning is full...But after 1:00PM I am open, that is unless I have someone coming in to see puppies!!! Can't wait to meet you all!

In a message dated 7/28/2010 2:16:38 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time

Hi Irena!!

I am very happy to have received 1/2 from Mary, and I think I will get the rest, even if it takes her another 4 months.

I think after 1:00 should work. I will send this to Xxxxx and we will call and let you know.

thanks so much, looking forward to meeting you.

On Jul 28, 2010 at 2:24:51 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:

Sounds great! Please remember although I would love to meet your puppies...I have an unvaccinated litter and a newly bred bitch, so please leave your Dane babies at home

. We will have to set up another meeting at one of your homes so I get to meet the babies!

In a message dated 7/28/2010 2:48:13 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time

Absolutely!! I already told Xxxxx I wuold be leaving XXxxx at home. I appreciate that reminder.

See you soon

Another person who emailed me

***This person and I also have had several telephone converstations so sorry if the text loses you a bit. ***

In a message dated 7/15/2010 5:59:45 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time

Hello Irena,

Thank you for calling me back and talking with me. I look forward with meeting you and your fur family =) And I can't wait to introduce you to Xxxxx.. Attached are some pics of him in the last two weeks.Have a wonderful evening an we'll be in touch!

Take care,

XXXXX

On Jul 15, 2010 at 6:56:51 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:

Hi Xxxxx,

Thanks so much for sharing my grandpuppy with me! Here is your XXX's pedigree pictures. Whatever you want to know about this pedigree I can tell you. I know the dog's and breeders and can point you to their websites if you like. (Just like a true breeder should be able to do with her lines!!!!) The pictures may come in several emails...I have alot!!!

(I did not post on here the emails that went with the pictures.)

In a message dated 7/16/2010 8:02:02 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time

Good Morning Irena!

Thank you so much for sharing your pictures with Xxxx and I. I was tearing up when I was looking at them. They are incredible looking, absolutely Gorgeous! They truly are the best I've ever seen.You have certainly put both our mind to ease, and I just hope Xxxx takes after Shadow more then Lacey. However, my heart just breaks for Xxxx and the others that may not be so lucky with getting a dog from Mary. I definitly know how they feel with going through the heartache of losing Xxxxx.
I'm OUTRAGED what she has done. And to KNOW that her dogs have had problems in the past, Just sickens me to no end. She is such a LIAR! I want to never speak to Mary again! The only thing I worry about is in her contract I believe I have to stay in contact with her to give her updates on Xxxxx (once a year). After sending my letter and reporting her, I will send her a letter (not sure how yet) saying I found out she lied about Xxxxx's litter. If anything I can tell her I was talking to Xxxxx and found out the severity of Xxxxx's illness. Mary knows I can get in contact with Xxxxx but doesn't know we have been talking. Mary has not kept her work with her contract so why do I have to?!?
I'm so glad I got to talk to you yesterday. It's a wonderful feeling to know there are great breeders out there like yourself, the best I have ever seen! I'm very excited to meet you and your fur family and to introduce you to your Granddoggie, Xxxxx =)

Talk to you later! Have a good one!

From: [email protected]
To: " [email protected]>, [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2010 11:10:56 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Hey, ready for visitors

Hey Guys,

In a message dated 7/25/2010 4:05:59 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time

YAY!!!!! Can't wait! Xxxxx since you have a farther drive, did you want to pick the day?

Yet another person who emailed me

Sorry to protect the identity I will not post the dates this person visited but the orginal emails do have time/date stamps! This person and I have spoken several times via phone & email back and forth about them researching breeders, I won't bore you or make this page any longer then it needs to be, so i'll post the important email converstation pretanining to Mary Roycroft and Twilight Great Danes/Farm.

Good morning Irena,

Thank you very much for the great information!! Personal information about this person...will not post!. I actually found your sit from looking up the grandsire of a puppy we were looking at. These pupies were the offspring of Shadows Still Remain. He was a beautiful dog with a great personality. Researching your dogs its amazing how many show winners there are in the lineage and the offspring from past litters winning titles. We are looking for a companion. I'd love to show but for our first dane we plan on getting him neutered and have as a member of our family.

I will call you when we return. Thanks,

Hello Xxxx,

Not a problem and thank you for the heads up. Since sorry this would give a time frame of a visit! I will not post! I hope you understand why I have this policy. Please feel free to contact me with any questions you may have about our Danes (or any questions about Danes in general). Please feel free to follow our Danes via our web site (link below) or Facebook ( http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php?gid=101796969864920 ). I hope I can help you in your quest for bringing a new Dane baby into your home!

Also, I do have one quick question for you, when we spoke on the phone the other day you had mentioned that while you were visiting Twilight Farms that they had an "accidental" breeding before you got there, would you by chance know which female it was? If you don't know that's ok, but just thought I might ask!

Once again, thanks for taking time to inquire about our Danes and I am always available to speak "Dane" with you!!!

Yes, the female is Storm. When we were there she was barking/growling at us and looked pretty bad. Fred said she had a fever the day before and should be doing better but she looked in bad shape. Eyes hung down quite far and you could see a lot of red under neigh.

Thanks again for all the info and I look forward to seeing the puppies!

Thank you for that information! I am assuming then it was a few months ago that you visited since Storm's pups are now 4-5 wks old?

No, we were there this (Sorry, would give a date). Storm was still in the kennel in the garage with her puppies in a kennel next to her. They had placed a mattress, and some cardboard between the 2 kennels so Storm could not see the puppies. Storm was barking so ferociously, and I had not seen a Dane act like that. The puppy kennel was covered in feces, and a million flies. We did not look at those puppies as they just stayed in their kennel.

***PLEASE NOTE-Mary Roycroft advertises her dogs and puppies are raised and live in the house as family!!! I know I would NEVER lock a family member in the garage in kennel runs!!!!***

Would you mind if I Personal information and legal information!is involved with rescue and also Personal and legal informationI belong to. If Storm is in that bad of shape and those puppies are being left in those conditions...Plus I see from her web site she has another litter due tomorrow... Someone needs to have a look and step in if need be!!! And for Storm's sake quickly!!!

That would not be a problem. I love dogs and hate to see them being breed in conditions like that. I am not sure which one is the mother of the upcoming litter as we did not meet a lot of the females as they were all quite aloof. I do not remember many black females but the one I do remember is a bit old and had a hard time walking. I pray that is not the mother.

***PLEASE NOTE: Twilight's Baroness Kair Bear "Bear", her birthday is 3/4/2004!!!

Twilight's Baby Blue "Baby", her birthday is 6/10/2004!!!***

Phone Calls

Over the last several months I have received quite a bit of phone calls, but because I do not have any solid proof of conversations I will not post, except for what one person told me (This is completely heresay, but given the above statement from that person...this is relevent!):

This person had stated to me that they were out to visit the pups at Twilight Great Danes and during our 1 1/2 hour conversation they had mentioned to me (this is several weeks after the above emails) that they were looking at Storm's Pups and when they asked to see the mother of the pups they were given an excusse that someone had taking the mother into the vet that morning because she was not feeling well.

I HAVE A SICK FEELING IN THE BOTTOM OF MY STOMACH THAT STORM MAY HAVE PASSED AWAY!!! I HOPE THIS IS NOT TRUE!!!! PLEASE KEEP IN MIND IF YOU ARE GOING TO SEE ANY PUPS, ASK TO SEE THE MOTHER!!!! IF THEY CANNOT SHOW YOU THE MOTHER, WALK...NO TURN AND RUN AWAY!!! WHY ON EARTH WOULD ANYONE ALLOW YOU TO COME SEE PUPPIES IF THEY KNOW YOU ARE COMING, AND NOT HAVE THE MOTHER ON THE PREMISSES?!!! IF IT WERE ME (CLEARLY IT'S NOT) I WOULD OF CALLED TO RESCHEDULE YOUR APPOINTMENT AND HAD THE MAMA AT THE VET'S OFFICE MYSELF!!!! PLEASE ANYONE LET ME KNOW THIS MAMA IS OK AND SHE HAS NOT PASSED AWAY DUE TO LACK OF VET CARE...BAD ENOUGH THIS MOTHER HAS BEEN KEPT AWAY FROM HER BABIES....

PLEASE BE SURE TO USE YOUR HEAD AND NOT YOUR HEART WHEN PURCHASING A PUPPY FROM ANY BREEDER...BECAUSE IF YOU FOLLOW YOUR HEART THAT EXPENSIVE PUPPY WILL COST YOU WAY MORE IN MEDICAL BILLS AND EMOTIONAL DISSTRESS IN THE END!!!!

Interesting links and other reading

Ostrich Syndrome

AKC-Kennel Blindness

Kennel Blind

Popular Sire Syndrome & Breeding Paper

Paper Tigers

Breeder's are the key

A Quote for all breeders (and can be adapted to every day life as well) to learn and live by:

Breeders (people) are the first line of awareness. Breeders (people) who raise a flag to help others, help themselves and the breed (humankind) they cherish at the same time. Breeders (people) are in this together whether they like it or not, because the ancestors of a breed (humankind) are all related to some degree or another. The ONLY recourse in dealing with inherited (any problem or situation) diseases is careful observation and conscientious breeding (problem solving). Now, with the tools that are becoming available, the informed breeder (person) have more options and more solutions than ever before!

We as breeders owe it to our dogs to use every test available to produce the best possible puppies we can! We owe it to our dogs that we know have problems to seek out and make that dog a part of a research study (Even in the case of healthy dogs, research always needs control studies!!!)! Help the breed by acknowledging there is a problem! We owe it to the dogs when problems are found and continue to show their heads, to spay & neuter! Anyone that does NOT research a pedigree before breeding, in my opinion, is out to make a buck! Anyone that does not use what is available and continue to breed and produce genectically unsound & sick puppies, in my opinion, is someone looking to make a buck! We as breeders don't only owe it to our dogs, but to our "new" puppy families, so they may spend long happy healthy years together with their 4 legged family member!!!